Pokemon Universe MMORPG
Pokémon Universe => Ideas & Suggestions => Topic started by: Bing on March 28, 2011, 06:17:51 AM
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I tried searching for this topic but couldn't fine anything. If there is one please link me to it and lock this thread.
Now, this is a radical idea that I have had for sometime. How about it PU, there are NO entry hazards! This would literally make my day complete. I hate two things in pokemon, legendaries and entry hazards. Legendaries are uncatchable in PU, were almost there on the road to awesomeness. So lets arrive at awesomeness by removing entry hazards.
Note: This is just my opinion, I am not making fun of any one who actually likes entry hazards (though why anyone would is beyond me.)
So what are your opinions on my suggestion?
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People love them because they can cripple sweepers.
I agree, but then I would have to fix Ferrothorn.
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They have already said Stealth rock will not be in PU, but I'm not sure if Spikes and Toxic spikes will be in or not.
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I'm pretty sure that stealth rock is out, but the spikes are still there.
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I'm pretty sure that stealth rock is out, but the spikes are still there.
Stealth Rock is 150% out of the game.
We've allowed the spikes to stay because they take a little more time to set up proberly.
Spikes can do <= 25% Max HP, but that's first after three setup turns.
Toxic Spikes takes two setup turns for it to poison the foes badly.
None of the above will therefore have a major influence on the PU PvP Metagame.
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just though of this but what about the pokemon that learn it naturally?
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they don't learn it, and in return learn either another move that they would only learn via tm
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they learn the rest of their moveset faster
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That could work.
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just though of this but what about the pokemon that learn it naturally?
The list of pokemon learning SR by level up is short:
- Geodude
- Graveler
- Golem
- Onix
- Steelix
- Roggenrola
- Boldore
- Gigalith
- Dwebble
- Crustle
Whether the above Pokemon will learn another move instead is up to the balance team.
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wow most are from gen5
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Although, all the rest (bar Steelix, which is an evo from Gen I) are from Gen I.
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SR was a common TM. So not many learned it by level up in Gen IV.
The other (and I would say main) reason why Stealth Rock was removed, is because it specifically targets certain Pokemon.
It makes a lot of Pokemon somewhat useless after just being set up. If it affected everyone equally, it could be tweaked or left as is depending on what we want for PU - but as it is, it's just a big "F* You" to Fires, Flying, Ice and Bugs - who are already quite rare in comp play without secondary, stronger elements (Steel, Fighting, Water).
The loss of Stealth Rock as a level up move won't cripple any Pokemon while they level, and so we don't feel as if we need to give Pokemon anything to fill the gap.
That said, we are talking over a possible replacement that does a flat 15% damage to any Pokes that switch in. It would be independent of weaknesses, and would even hit fliers.
It also does more damage than L1 Spikes - so it would be good for fast offensive teams that don't want to take time to set up, but still want entry hazards to help KOs.
This would be offered to Pokemon who lost SR.
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SR was a common TM. So not many learned it by level up in Gen IV.
The other (and I would say main) reason why Stealth Rock was removed, is because it specifically targets certain Pokemon.
It makes a lot of Pokemon somewhat useless after just being set up. If it affected everyone equally, it could be tweaked or left as is depending on what we want for PU - but as it is, it's just a big "F* You" to Fires, Flying, Ice and Bugs - who are already quite rare in comp play without secondary, stronger elements (Steel, Fighting, Water).
The loss of Stealth Rock as a level up move won't cripple any Pokemon while they level, and so we don't feel as if we need to give Pokemon anything to fill the gap.
That said, we are talking over a possible replacement that does a flat 15% damage to any Pokes that switch in. It would be independent of weaknesses, and would even hit fliers.
It also does more damage than L1 Spikes - so it would be good for fast offensive teams that don't want to take time to set up, but still want entry hazards to help KOs.
This would be offered to Pokemon who lost SR.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Personally, I have a general dislike for entry hazards, like stealth rock. First of all because everyone uses them. I can guarantee that in ten battles, at least eight of my opponents will use some form of entry hazard. If they were removed, many people would use different strategies instead of the current popular one of. Me spam hazards!
Or at least get rid of the fact that you can level up the spikes.
And, like I said before. This is just an idea of mine, It's an opinion. It just so happens that it is one that I feel strongly about. (To me, using entry hazards is like throwing a Lvl 100 Zekrom at a Lvl 1 Squirtle.)
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With the removal of SR, Charizard will have a much easier time switching in, instead of losing 1/2 it's HP every time it switches in.
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Stealth Rock is the Zubat of the moveset world. I can't do ONE match online without:
"The Foe's Forttress used Stealth Rock!"
"The Foe's Forttress used Spikes!"
"The Foe's Forttress used Poison Spikes!"
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SR was a common TM. So not many learned it by level up in Gen IV.
The other (and I would say main) reason why Stealth Rock was removed, is because it specifically targets certain Pokemon.
It makes a lot of Pokemon somewhat useless after just being set up. If it affected everyone equally, it could be tweaked or left as is depending on what we want for PU - but as it is, it's just a big "F* You" to Fires, Flying, Ice and Bugs - who are already quite rare in comp play without secondary, stronger elements (Steel, Fighting, Water).
The loss of Stealth Rock as a level up move won't cripple any Pokemon while they level, and so we don't feel as if we need to give Pokemon anything to fill the gap.
That said, we are talking over a possible replacement that does a flat 15% damage to any Pokes that switch in. It would be independent of weaknesses, and would even hit fliers.
It also does more damage than L1 Spikes - so it would be good for fast offensive teams that don't want to take time to set up, but still want entry hazards to help KOs.
This would be offered to Pokemon who lost SR.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Personally, I have a general dislike for entry hazards, like stealth rock. First of all because everyone uses them. I can guarantee that in ten battles, at least eight of my opponents will use some form of entry hazard. If they were removed, many people would use different strategies instead of the current popular one of. Me spam hazards!
Or at least get rid of the fact that you can level up the spikes.
And, like I said before. This is just an idea of mine, It's an opinion. It just so happens that it is one that I feel strongly about. (To me, using entry hazards is like throwing a Lvl 100 Zekrom at a Lvl 1 Squirtle.)
Thats because they are effective.
And i like the new idea level5pidgey, as long as pokemon who could learn the tm stealth rocks could also learn this one.
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As long as they don't make pokemon like Charizard useless. I can live with it.
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I quite like entry hazards would stop people from overpowering someone in battle by continuingly switching to something like a certin overpowered fire pokemon lol :D
Bulbasaur FTW!
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That is what they are for, to make sure you cant switch in 100 times.
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Yeah, except that's not what Stealth Rocks do. At all.
They take away half the health of your Fire/Bug/Ice types upon entry.
They have to enter sometime.
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That is why I use spikes.
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It's as Pidgey said. Spikes and Toxic spikes can't be set up instantaneously and usually require a dedicated 'mon or team to work well with. At the very least, your core defensive group has to be built around it. However, Stealth Rock could, can, and usually is thrown on to practically any 'mon that can take a hit, stay in for a turn (Or is your lead) and learn it. (RE: Everything, really.)
So, removing Stealth Rock will greatly increase playability of certain Pokemon. Most notably a certain Fire / Flying starter everyone is fond of. However, other Pokemon such as Salamence will be getting a nerf because of this. The reason being: Salamence, Gyarados and friends, without Stealth Rock, can switch in relatively unhindered and proceed to sweep. That would be counter productive to balancing.
In the end, we're making quite a few changes to, hopefully, make it more fun for everyone. And my job is to make sure that it's still fun for any competitive players amongst us. (Don't worry, I like competitive battling just as much as you do.)
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Idk about Gyardos and Salamance just coming in and sweeping. I refuse to use any form of entry hazard and I have no problem dealing with sweepers.
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I say they do a plain 1/4th dammage.
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One quarter damage would likely be too high for a single set up.
I have been thinking about what I said earlier (possible 15% SR), and really, I think Spikes and Toxic Spikes should be the only entry hazards out there.
It just nicely limits the damage done - 15% SR and 2 layers of Spikes would give more than 1/3 hp loss on switching in which just sucks.
So yeah, only Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
To counter them, all you gotta do is have a taunting lead/get a taunter in when they start setting up spikes, or Rapid Spin. Espeon and Xatu can actually reflect Spikes at the opponent completely.
We're looking to make Rapid Spin a more widespread move in PU (not too many Pokes, but, more than what there are now) - so it's easier to counter.
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Idk about Gyardos and Salamance just coming in and sweeping. I refuse to use any form of entry hazard and I have no problem dealing with sweepers.
There is a reason that Salamence was barred to Ubers for a period of time before Black and White came out. It was because, even with Stealth Rock, it could bring you back from a 1-6 to a 1-0. It was that powerful.
If you're not having a problem with them, it's most likely a testament to the skill of the other player. Not the Pokemon itself.
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I wonder if you could make it so that entry hazards only activate if a trainer switches out when the current pokemon is not koed. Ex: Weavile is in for me. My opponent sends in Charizard, (he launched a stealth rock earlier) I switch to Blastoise. Since Weavile did not faint, I take the damage.
Weavile is in for me, My opponents has Charizard out. Weavile gets knocked out and I switch in Blastoise who takes no damage.
Edit: I still would love to see SR removed. Even if the above idea is possible.
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wow most are from gen5
Most is the INCORRECT term. Half is precise.
One quarter damage would likely be too high for a single set up.
I have been thinking about what I said earlier (possible 15% SR), and really, I think Spikes and Toxic Spikes should be the only entry hazards out there.
It just nicely limits the damage done - 15% SR and 2 layers of Spikes would give more than 1/3 hp loss on switching in which just sucks.
So yeah, only Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
To counter them, all you gotta do is have a taunting lead/get a taunter in when they start setting up spikes, or Rapid Spin. Espeon and Xatu can actually reflect Spikes at the opponent completely.
We're looking to make Rapid Spin a more widespread move in PU (not too many Pokes, but, more than what there are now) - so it's easier to counter.
For those who has not experienced with PO A LOT, I've witnessed many people who I encounter with similar team themes has A LEAST one pokemon with Rapid Spin to counter spikes if they had them setup. As for Toxic Spikes, many teams usually carry a Poison type to get rid toxic spikes.
So BING, just because you're against it, IT doesn't mean you can be a demagogue for against SR/Spikes/Tspikes. I'm okay with the idea of not having Stealth Rock, but Spikes takes time to set it up. It also requires a proper team to build around it.
Stealth Rock is the Zubat of the moveset world. I can't do ONE match online without:
"The Foe's Forttress used Stealth Rock!"
"The Foe's Forttress used Spikes!"
"The Foe's Forttress used Poison Spikes!"
Sorry fry, I must disagree very much. I've hardly EVER met a team who has toxic spikes and spikes set up at once. Steal Rock and Spikes, yes... but it's rather rare for those be played and set up on a team.
I think I've listed my opinion about it...
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Actually, I agree with fry. I often run into teams that use SR, Spikes and Toxic Spikes all at the same time.
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Trust me, if you want to see a troll on the entry hazards let me get my team ready. I can get all of them up in no time and you will have only 50% of you HP left when I am done with you....
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Actually, I agree with fry. I often run into teams that use SR, Spikes and Toxic Spikes all at the same time.
Well.. I never had. Only up to 2, but I never give mercy of letting them set up to the max like spikes with stealth or vice versa with toxic. (that is only when I have a rapid spinner)
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You let me ;)
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You let me ;)
Reason, I didn't have a rapid spinner at that time or else I would've done so earlier. :P
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Yeah, my team needs work. Crits kill every one of my pokemon. and the funny thing is: they get crits every other turn!
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Yeah I do!
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I'm just lucky like that. :) Oh.. and please don't forget, Crits does POP up occasionally whenever you have a staller. ^^
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I know that, but when an attack is doing 9% damage, then they get a crit and my pokemon faints, that is bull.
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I know that, but when an attack is doing 9% damage, then they get a crit and my pokemon faints, that is bull.
That's how Crit. works. People hate and love it. I ONLY hate it when I get hit with crits on poke games especially battle frontiers etc.
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Yeah the god of Hax must die!
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You're not the first to hate it. :)
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Yeah the god of Hax must die!
I remember once, a low-attack pokemon hit a metagross of mine on PO with a not-very-effective hit, it didn't get a crit, and the attack was a OHKO.
Lolwut?
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lol
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Yeah the god of Hax must die!
I remember once, a low-attack pokemon hit a metagross of mine on PO with a not-very-effective hit, it didn't get a crit, and the attack was a OHKO.
Lolwut?
That.. IS different.
1-hit KO moves are different. The only two moves that KO is: fissure and sheer cold. (for those who doesn't know)
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Yeah the god of Hax must die!
I remember once, a low-attack pokemon hit a metagross of mine on PO with a not-very-effective hit, it didn't get a crit, and the attack was a OHKO.
Lolwut?
That.. IS different.
1-hit KO moves are different. The only two moves that KO is: fissure and sheer cold. (for those who doesn't know)
There are four.
Guillotine
Fissure
Sheer Cold
Horn Drill
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my bad.. I knew I was missing some but I was rather busy to think more... =/
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I just played 10 matches in PO and everyone either had a combo of, stealth rock + spikes or stealth rock + toxic spikes.
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I personally think that SR should not be taken out. Yes, SR targets certain pokemon and makes them useless (Cahrizard) but its also strategy that many competative players like to use. Game Freak saw that SR really screws with alot of people so they effectively cut the usage of it. They cut SR from the TM list and made it to where gen 4 pokemon with they move can't be as useful in gen 5. This has actually cut down the useage of Stealth Rocks by at least 34% since B/W came out in Japan.
I think that SR should not be a TM but only available to those that can learn it by lv up in gen 5. If it was a TM, maybe it would be one of those TMs that you could only get by winning an event. This would make sure that the move isn't used as much in PU's PvP and ensure that certain flying/bug/fire/ice types can be used in the metagame.
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I personally think that SR should not be taken out. Yes, SR targets certain pokemon and makes them useless (Cahrizard) but its also strategy that many competative players like to use. Game Freak saw that SR really screws with alot of people so they effectively cut the usage of it. They cut SR from the TM list and made it to where gen 4 pokemon with they move can't be as useful in gen 5. This has actually cut down the useage of Stealth Rocks by at least 34% since B/W came out in Japan.
I think that SR should not be a TM but only available to those that can learn it by lv up in gen 5. If it was a TM, maybe it would be one of those TMs that you could only get by winning an event. This would make sure that the move isn't used as much in PU's PvP and ensure that certain flying/bug/fire/ice types can be used in the metagame.
This says one thing. That gamefreak understands the mistake they made with SR. But, they can't remove it because of it's popularity. So they just limited it. Really SR not being PU is better and there are other entry hazards you can use.
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I personally think that SR should not be taken out. Yes, SR targets certain pokemon and makes them useless (Cahrizard) but its also strategy that many competative players like to use. Game Freak saw that SR really screws with alot of people so they effectively cut the usage of it. They cut SR from the TM list and made it to where gen 4 pokemon with they move can't be as useful in gen 5. This has actually cut down the useage of Stealth Rocks by at least 34% since B/W came out in Japan.
I think that SR should not be a TM but only available to those that can learn it by lv up in gen 5. If it was a TM, maybe it would be one of those TMs that you could only get by winning an event. This would make sure that the move isn't used as much in PU's PvP and ensure that certain flying/bug/fire/ice types can be used in the metagame.
So, instead of fixing an obvious balance issue - we should try to sweep it under the rug and fragment movepools as much as possible so it's hard to use?
Just because a small number of people swear by it, while a lot of people in the community think it's over-centralising?
I dunno, I personally think that it's better to just remove it in this case.
Only a few people will be annoyed, a lot will be relieved, and it won't lead to annoying fragmentation of moves.
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krabby + Guillotine = Win If Your a Lower Lvl =/
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I personally think that SR should not be taken out. Yes, SR targets certain pokemon and makes them useless (Cahrizard) but its also strategy that many competative players like to use. Game Freak saw that SR really screws with alot of people so they effectively cut the usage of it. They cut SR from the TM list and made it to where gen 4 pokemon with they move can't be as useful in gen 5. This has actually cut down the useage of Stealth Rocks by at least 34% since B/W came out in Japan.
I think that SR should not be a TM but only available to those that can learn it by lv up in gen 5. If it was a TM, maybe it would be one of those TMs that you could only get by winning an event. This would make sure that the move isn't used as much in PU's PvP and ensure that certain flying/bug/fire/ice types can be used in the metagame.
So, instead of fixing an obvious balance issue - we should try to sweep it under the rug and fragment movepools as much as possible so it's hard to use?
Just because a small number of people swear by it, while a lot of people in the community think it's over-centralising?
I dunno, I personally think that it's better to just remove it in this case.
Only a few people will be annoyed, a lot will be relieved, and it won't lead to annoying fragmentation of moves.
Honestly, there is no winning argument for Stealth Rocks. When Game Freak admits that maybe the move is a problem, then there is deffinetly a problem. I just think that getting rid of the problem at hand ruins the chance for us to come up with new ways of countering the problem. Maybe PU can add an effect for certain attacks that rid the battlefield of SR. All I am saying is getting rid of SR is a--for a lack of a better word--borring aproach to the problem even if it is the best and easiest option.
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it is the best and easiest option.
The end.
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Honestly, there is no winning argument for Stealth Rocks. When Game Freak admits that maybe the move is a problem, then there is deffinetly a problem. I just think that getting rid of the problem at hand ruins the chance for us to come up with new ways of countering the problem. Maybe PU can add an effect for certain attacks that rid the battlefield of SR. All I am saying is getting rid of SR is a--for a lack of a better word--borring aproach to the problem even if it is the best and easiest option.
I can't really speak for how Game Freak views balance in Pokemon. Sometimes I see something they do, and I believe that they understand a balance concern and have done their best to rectify it (Ditto), but other times, I see something they have done that says otherwise (Flareon, other mediocre Pokemon that never get *that one thing* they need).
But, that doesn't matter, Game Freak is not an important variable in my balance decisions, because I feel like I know the game and metagame well enough to make my own judgements.
I see Stealth Rock as bad for reasons I've stated, and I feel inclined to say that you agree.
Where we disagree is where I think that the best way to solve a balance issue is probably the simplest (Occam's Razor), where as you think that a balance issue should be made rare, and should be kept in the game for players to play around to make it more exciting.
I'm hoping that the game will be interesting enough without needing to force people to play against imbalanced scenarios XP
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Pidegey, has a major point. PU is not Gamefreak, and if PU's balance team feels it is best to remove stealth rock then thats that. I personally agree wholeheartedly with the the decision to remove SR. I would love to put Charizard on my PO team, but I can't because of the amount of people that spam SR.
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seems like this is end of the discussion.
/locked
If you want it reopened, please contact me on the chat.