Pokemon Universe MMORPG
Pokémon Universe => Balance Server Testing => Topic started by: Roloc on September 11, 2012, 05:23:52 AM
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Played on the balance server and found a pokemon that seemed too weak or too strong? Tell us here! Please remember to give us well thought out reasons why you think it is balanced or unbalanced. Simply saying "it sucks!" isn't going to get you anywhere.
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Jumpluff
Jumpluff is out classed by other support pokemon like vileplume for example.Its alslo outclassed by whimsicott in the "annoying pokemon" role. Vileplume has better defences ,typing ,and a much better ability. While whimsicott has prankster which is a massive boon for a "annoying" pokemon.Jumpluff can't take any hits ,and it can barely dish them out. Jumpluff on the offensive is also very weak. I was able to switch into a sleeping macargo ,so I swords danced twice then was unable to 2HKO. Did I mention it wasen't even at full health.
If jumpluff is meant for a support role which it has the movepool to do , then the att/sp.att buff really wasen't needed. A buff to defences ,or health would be a much better improvment. There are alot of things you could do that would make jumpluff good though ,without changing what it does best. If you removed leaf guard for magic bounce (hey its bouncy) then it could switch in on a status move ,and encore reflecting the status. You could then t-wave/sleep powder what ever switches in ,and you now have crippled two pokemon. Oh ,and it woulden't miss leaf guard since leaf guard is pretty much a worse magic bounce.
Anyway there are alot of things you can do here ,or you can not do anything at all I really don't care about jumpluff to begin with.
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Azumarill
I've mentioned before that the only way it can do good damage is with huge power, but it has another good ability in sap sipper that it just doesn't have the stats to use. It needs a special attack boost, which wouldn't effect huge power. Better speed would make it a better sweeper, instead of relying on aqua jet to attack. Sap sipper lets it switch into a grass attack, but after that what is it going to do? Even if someone still used huge power with its higher SpA, a frail mixed sweeper isn't going to be broken.
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Azumarill, I don't really know what to say. It doesn't really need anything right now. It has the potential to wipe out whole fire teams, (It's happened to me a few times) so I don't really think it should have more speed. If fact if you want to raise it's speed I'd say it should lose Aqua Jet. I don't think with huge power and a speed buff it should have priority. Kind of like how Mammoswine lost ice shard.
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Well if you can make sap sipper more viable, assuming you don't just give it to another water type, then it wouldn't be too terrible if Azumarill sacrificed priority for a speed boost.
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Azumarill
Well from what I have seen with Azumarill, it is able to pull off sap sipper. Miss Wednesday has a set and has used it against me and others and it seems to work pretty well. I don't really see Azumarill getting a speed boost or losing Aqua Jet. But I will see about giving another water type sap sipper. No promises though. Remember, we don't balance around mono teams. So Azumarill sweeping mono fire teams or Azumarill not being able to pull off a sap sipper set for a mono water team isn't something we are going to balance around.
Jumpluff
I can't say too much about this one cause I have only seen it in action a few times. But, from what I remember, the set that shadowfred was using against me seemed to do pretty well. Shadowfred will have to shed more light on this.
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I will second the azumarill thing not because its weak right now by any means ,but because sap sipper is being totally wasted on it. Its kinda sad that there aren't any other water types sap sipper would make since on. Well there are a few ,but they have been balanced already ,so ohwell.
This would kinda go against balance goels aswell being they just want each pokemon to be a viable choice ,and to keep them pretty much the same.
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.....but because sap sipper is being totally wasted on it. ........
I wouldn't go that far. I don't see it being wasted on it by any means. People always go for the huge power build and never think to make a sap sipper set. I think people often forget Azumarill has a very nice HP stat. While it's defensive stats are lacking, it has moves to help with that such as Charm, Amnesia, Light Screen and Captivate
I think a simple tweak in Azumarill's moves will fix the problem. Currently Azumarill is not able to have Belly Drum and Aqua Jet/Focus Punch at the same time. If we make it so it can, then you could build a set that looks a little something like this:
Azumarill (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Focus Punch
Switch in on a grass attack. Hopefully this will force out your oppenent and leave you with a free sub. Belly drum on the next turn and be free to Aqua Jet everything in sight.
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Maybe carrosta could get sap sipper. Hard to justifi ,but its not like anyone will start a riot over the sap sipping sea turtle. Thats off topic though.
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An abiity to remove a heavy weakness sounds really good. Gorebyss comes to mind too, since sucking fluids is how it eats.
I've never seen corsola used. It likely needs balancing too.low speed and health, and its good stats aren't too great.
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Sableye
I find nothing majorly wrong with him. He has low defense, so many physical attackers could beat him, except for WoW. It can have him take a hit, and then with reover, it is a matter of stalling. Now I have no problems with this, it works well.
However, with access to taunt, he can stop many things. He has trouble with set up pokemon, using this, he can stop them. Sableye has no weakness, so set up sweepers help with this. But taunt freezes them. I by no means am questioning the balance, just pointing out what I see.
~The-Blades-Slave
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I think removing taunt from sableye would solve the problem. I think it needs WoW because of its low defense. But, that taunt just completely stops special setup sweepers and if they can't set up then they can't get by its bulky special defense. Sableye not having any weaknesses is the only reason that the removal of taunt is needed in my opinion.
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So we haven't really reached a conclushion on the jumpluff thing......any thoughts?
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I'm currently the only active balance member. Shadowfred and Ponge are very busy at this time.(University, Jobs, Life ya know?) Give them some time and they will make a post.
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I'm currently the only active balance member. Shadowfred and Ponge are very busy at this time.(University, Jobs, Life ya know?) Give them some time and they will make a post.
I'll start to be more active again starting next friday, since college, sport and work are literally absorbing any amount of free time I have left. Things should settle down by then. To get back on the balancing topic: Azumarill is fine the way it is, why change it. Jus ask fox how much fun it is (especially in the rain). We could make another Sap Sipper water type to compensate for that (as Roloc stated). The set Roloc proposed would also heavily OP if avaiable with the Huge Power ability.
On the Jumpluff issue I won't answer yet because I've never used it and I will have to look into is. The only thing I remember is it's massive speed in the sun due to the Chlorophyll ability.
Sableye is pretty good he way it is atm, I don't understand why so many people have trouble with him. There are alot of ways to stop him, he isn't that strong defensively.
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I'm currently the only active balance member. Shadowfred and Ponge are very busy at this time.(University, Jobs, Life ya know?) Give them some time and they will make a post.
I'll start to be more active again starting next friday, since college, sport and work are literally absorbing any amount of free time I have left. Things should settle down by then. To get back on the balancing topic: Azumarill is fine the way it is, why change it. Jus ask fox how much fun it is (especially in the rain). We could make another Sap Sipper water type to compensate for that (as Roloc stated). The set Roloc proposed would also heavily OP if avaiable with the Huge Power ability.
On the Jumpluff issue I won't answer yet because I've never used it and I will have to look into is. The only thing I remember is it's massive speed in the sun due to the Chlorophyll ability.
Sableye is pretty good he way it is atm, I don't understand why so many people have trouble with him. There are alot of ways to stop him, he isn't that strong defensively.
Azumarill & Jumpluff I agree on. Sap Sipper on another water type will be easy as we have plenty left that we haven't balanced yet. I don't know much about Jumpluff other then what I have seen when other people have used it. From what I have seen it always did good.
But Sableye needs the taunt nerf. There are just too many people complaining about it so there has to be something up. I myself have always been able to kill it really easy and I have tried to show and tell people how to kill it but I still get complaints of it being OP. I used to get the same complaints on Quagsire and Masqurain. After I told people how to kill them then I didn't hear anything else about it. Except: "Oh man, that thing is easy to kill now." But with Sableye all I still hear is how it sweeps whole teams. I have only seen Sableye be this big of a problem WITH taunt. without taunt it isn't that big of a deal. Thats why I proposed the removal of taunt to make sableye also weak to special setup sweepers.
The set Roloc proposed would also heavily OP if avaiable with the Huge Power ability.
Azumarill wouldn't be able to have that set with Huge power. We'd have to come up with a way that it couldn't have Aqua Jet and Belly Drum WITH Huge Power.
But balancing another water type with Sap Sipper would be the easiest solution in my opinion. We have a few water types left so I'd let one of them have a go at it.
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I don't have any issues killing other peaple's sabeleyes ,and honestly I hardly see it to begin with. Removing taunt would really hurt it in my opinion if taunt is gone then it is countered by: sub,status, set up moves, fire types,magic bounce ,other pranksters(hes the slowest prankster), charge beam,magic guard, shed skin,and magic bounce. With taunt you can use moves that have a chance to inflict status, charge beam,magic bounce, magic guard,other pranksters, wonder guard,wonder skin, shed skin, fire types, and pokes with massive attack(salamence,conckledur,ursaring ect.). He is not hard to counter even with taunt ,and the peaple ( I think 2 have complained) who are having a problem with him I guese are just not carrying any of the things I listed which is there fault.
If you really wanna nerf him I would remove WOW and give him t-wave so he can only wall specails ,but still not get set-up on.
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Removing Taunt off of Sableye will not hurt him that bad and in no way will make him useless. You are the only person I have seen running a taunt set. Everyone else have other sets that work really really well. Cortex has a set that doesn't contain taunt and is still able to sweep whole teams with it. Taunt just makes it so pokemon cant set up on sableye. Removing it would fix this and it would still do its job which is wall/stall just fine.
Also
It's about 8 people that have complained about Taunteye not just 2. If it was only two then I wouldn't even have brought it up. And I have told each one of them how to kill it and how to counter it but they just can't get the hang of it.
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Hush about Sableye.. let's go back to the water type... ._. Azumarill is just fine, maybe some people don't know how to use it, just because you can't use a pokemon the right way, doesn't mean it's not balanced right. *Kisses Roloc* =w= go on with sableye. ._.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Eh8BEUzRwCQ/T4zpnb6YMOI/AAAAAAAACbQ/GynJgc1TKpQ/s1600/GiraffeHat+giraffe+hat+everyone+shut+the+chansey+up+i%2527m+trying+to+think+meme+4chan+lol+wtf+old+man.jpg)
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Thank you for repeating what's already been said, Miss Wedensday.
I'm not sure if anyone responded to my question about buffing corsola a bit.
Has anyone considered making the white smoke and clear body abilities protect against stat lowering moves used by the pokemon? We hav an ability that makes moves raise stats instead of lowering them, so unless that's considered OP then this shouldn't.
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Thank you for repeating what's already been said, Miss Wedensday.
I'm not sure if anyone responded to my question about buffing corsola a bit.
Has anyone considered making the white smoke and clear body abilities protect against stat lowering moves used by the pokemon? We hav an ability that makes moves raise stats instead of lowering them, so unless that's considered OP then this shouldn't.
IT looks like it needed to be repeated cause it seems people don't read very well.
Corsola has already been balanced.
IT wouldn't be OP? Overheat Torkoal anyone?
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Thank you for repeating what's already been said, Miss Wedensday.
I'm not sure if anyone responded to my question about buffing corsola a bit.
Has anyone considered making the white smoke and clear body abilities protect against stat lowering moves used by the pokemon? We hav an ability that makes moves raise stats instead of lowering them, so unless that's considered OP then this shouldn't.
IT looks like it needed to be repeated cause it seems people don't read very well.
Corsola has already been balanced.
IT wouldn't be OP? Overheat Torkoal anyone?
D: You were online and didn't even message me? HOW DARE YOU! >:U
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I am still voting for the sap sipping sea turtle :D
Aww think of a cute little sea turtle munching on fruit!!!!That could be carracosta!
Sap sipping sea turtle powa!!!
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I'm sorry I missed it. I'm not sure if it's been changed, but if Serperior isn't OP with its ability, overheat torkoal isn't with his. white smoke wouldn't even raise any stats. It would just keep his from being lowered. You can't lower Serperior's stats. But maybe Serperior or its ability has changed, and I didn't notice it.
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*Kisses Roloc* =w=
*kisses* :D
D: You were online and didn't even message me? HOW DARE YOU! >:U
I was only gonna be gone for a second. and I sent you one when I got on :)
I'm sorry I missed it. I'm not sure if it's been changed, but if Serperior isn't OP with its ability, overheat torkoal isn't with his. white smoke wouldn't even raise any stats. It would just keep his from being lowered. You can't lower Serperior's stats. But maybe Serperior or its ability has changed, and I didn't notice it.
Serperior is also very very frail where Torkoal has massive defense. The only buff I could see that White smoke would get would probably be that it would also remove the stat reduction from paralyze and burn.
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*Kisses Roloc* =w=
*kisses* :D
D: You were online and didn't even message me? HOW DARE YOU! >:U
I was only gonna be gone for a second. and I sent you one when I got on :)
I'm sorry I missed it. I'm not sure if it's been changed, but if Serperior isn't OP with its ability, overheat torkoal isn't with his. white smoke wouldn't even raise any stats. It would just keep his from being lowered. You can't lower Serperior's stats. But maybe Serperior or its ability has changed, and I didn't notice it.
Serperior is also very very frail where Torkoal has massive defense. The only buff I could see that White smoke would get would probably be that it would also remove the stat reduction from paralyze and burn.
Serperior has 75/95/95 which is by no means fragile. Torkoal actully has more spa.att than serperior aswell suprisingly. I think both are perfectly fine though as they are.
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*Kisses Roloc* =w=
*kisses* :D
D: You were online and didn't even message me? HOW DARE YOU! >:U
I was only gonna be gone for a second. and I sent you one when I got on :)
I'm sorry I missed it. I'm not sure if it's been changed, but if Serperior isn't OP with its ability, overheat torkoal isn't with his. white smoke wouldn't even raise any stats. It would just keep his from being lowered. You can't lower Serperior's stats. But maybe Serperior or its ability has changed, and I didn't notice it.
Serperior is also very very frail where Torkoal has massive defense. The only buff I could see that White smoke would get would probably be that it would also remove the stat reduction from paralyze and burn.
Serperior has 75/95/95 which is by no means fragile. Torkoal actully has more spa.att than serperior aswell suprisingly. I think both are perfectly fine though as they are.
Actually, I was talking about the contrary build which is what the subject was about (making others like contrary) The contrary build for serperior(which is all SpA/Spe 90% of the time) is very frail, being OHKO'd by many pokemon.
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Has it been decided if Empoleon is getting roost?
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I was refering to it aswell even, without invesment its still alot bulkyer than most sweepers ,and I definetly woulden't consider it frail like say weavile.
Still I think they are both fine ,but I have a few pokes in my head that I beleave to be weak ,so I will post that later when I have some more cocreate reasons.
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Has it been decided if Empoleon is getting roost?
EMpoleon has already been balanced and is in perfect working order.
I was refering to it aswell even, without invesment its still alot bulkyer than most sweepers ,and I definetly woulden't consider it frail like say weavile.
Still I think they are both fine ,but I have a few pokes in my head that I beleave to be weak ,so I will post that later when I have some more cocreate reasons.
Being OHKO'd by tons of pokemon is considered frail. Just sayin'. But anyway, if you want to keep talking about it, you can PM me. This thread needs to stay on topic.
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I guess that's a no then. Tons of resistances with no dependable recovery just seems a waste.
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Well use leftovers, dang, Chad, quit complaining about every water type, maybe you should change types, oh wait, then those other types might not be OP enough for you! D:
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I don't mean to be Mr Complainy. I just have ideas that make sense to me, and would like to see them in the game. :-[
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I think when the nerf to shell smash comes into effect, Cloyster should get the move Waterfall.
Razor Shell is okay but the miss chance is annoying and hurts quite a bit sometimes. Waterfall give a nice option for people to choose.
Thoughts?
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Sounds good, and Waterfall as a 20% Flinch Chance, which may get good results.
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Well, I agree. I may be a bit biased, being a user of Cloyster, but I think he needs Waterfall. Razor shell is good, and I love the chance for a defense drop, but it misses too damn much. And, the majority of people use an SS Cloyster (I'm not one of them :D), so I think they will at least need a move that gives him decent power without the boost.
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Porygon-Z might be a tad OP, he did about 60% to both my tentacruel and Quagsire ( fully special Def EV'd). That and the chance on a status with his high BP STAB are ridiculous altogether.
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Was that with tri attack or hyper beam? cause meowths carries both since I told him to do so. Hyper beam is 300BP and will do a ton of damage, even if resisted. but then there is the trade off, recharge time. XD
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That was with tri-attack...
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Uh ponge, you do know that quag's not a special wall, right? at best with full special defense EV's, he's got a whopping 249. thats hardly a wall, and you hadn't used a stat boosting move either.
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Hmm, are they also max HP ev'd?
Cause I must say, I have fought meowth quite a few times over the past few days and haven't had a problem with Porygon-z, I mean yeah it hits hard but it dies pretty easily.
Could just be that a wall isn't the best thing to bring in on a pokemon like that.
BUT
if they are also max HP ev'd then yeah I think a small nerf could be in order.
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Hmm, are they also max HP ev'd?
Cause I must say, I have fought meowth quite a few times over the past few days and haven't had a problem with Porygon-z, I mean yeah it hits hard but it dies pretty easily.
Could just be that a wall isn't the best thing to bring in on a pokemon like that.
BUT
if they are also max HP ev'd then yeah I think a small nerf could be in order.
Max HP, max SpD, +SpD nature
Edit: Tentacruel was 51%, Quag 65.
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As I said on PO, with them being max sdef and max hp evs, it is possible it could need a slight nerf. I'd have to do more testing before I give my vote, cause I was fighting meowth with random teams the other day and It never gave me a problem. even beat it with a flying team that Blades sent me to make some changes too
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Do you think volcarona could get considered for some buffs? It was not even that op before the nerfs since all it took to kill it was any rock move. Rock is one of the most common attacking types in Pokémon and ever team has at least one rock move on it , normally more. Volcarona is also not that strong defensively and easy to kill before it sets up even without a rock move.
TL:DR losing 35 spa.att is insane and its not like volcarona is even hard to counter before it sets up or after it sets up. Not hard to revenge kill either.
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Are you trying to build a Pokemon team but are unsure about what your team's weaknesses are?
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Are you trying to build a Pokemon team but are unsure about what your team's weaknesses are?
No, this is a threat to talk about wether or not pokemon the balance team has balanced are actually balanced or unbalanced. Because we need feedback like this. It helps us a lot.
But there are lots of threads you can ask for help building a team in, lawrencecatherine. You can even ask in one of the guilds and I'm sure they will help. Good luck. :)
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Glaceon. Speak of it. People keeps saying it's unbalanced and hits way too hard, so figured someone should mention it. I'm biased because ice mono, so I don't think it is, but... For the greater good.
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Tyrantrum please xD Humen is abusing its power, and it can take a hit or two while head smashing u to oblivion. Its worse than aerodactyl...
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We haven't balance Tyrantrum yet. But you are more then welcome to discuss why you think it should be nerfed.
Anyone else have anything to say about glaceon? Now is the time to speak up if you thing it needs a nerf. The balance team wants the communities input in these things. Sometimes we may overlook something.
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If anything, I'd just nerf its health or defense. It's good, but I've seen Humen chanseyed over so many times because it misses one head smash. It's sort of gimmicky, like any head smash user.
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I have some input on Glaceon. It is balanced. I may have raged before (since it does hit my team hard) But after trying it out myself in regular servers, the team actually made it a niche poke for ice teams or any team in general. It is one of a small portion of hard hitting ice types, and should stay as it. It has a bunch of counters as well, and you just have to known when it is coming, or have a nice special wall on your team, a poke with good resistance,a poke that can hit it hard with priority, or a faster poke that can hit it even harder.
On Tyrantrum, since it's still in the testing phase, I don't really have anything to say except to swap out rock head for a different ability since it basically outclasses Rhampardos in the Scarfed Rock poke category.
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Tyrantrum does not outclass rampardos. Rampardos still has higher attack and higher speed with two other great abilities. If anything, rampardos outclasses tyrantrum.
tyrantrum has to run as jolly to run a good choice scarf set, other wise you will be outspeed by other pokes. Leaving it with only 341 attack.
while rampardos on the other hand is still faster then tyrantrum with an adamant nature and has a massive 438 attack. Almost 100 more attack then tyrantrum while having the choice of 1 of 3 amazing abilities, mold breaker, rock head or sheer force.
I'm surprised I haven't seen this set yet. It is the most powerful set I have seen since darmanitan. 438 attack + stab + sheer force + life orb on rock slide = holy sh!t
Rampardos (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Rock Slide
- ThunderPunch
- Fire Punch
Rock slide doesnt hit quite as hard as headsmash with the choice scarf set, but you have freedom to switch moves and your coverage moves hit way harder.
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tyrantrum is not that powerful. Special hits wreck it and it is 4x weak to the very commen ice move.
Like I said I think volcarona should be compensated for losing 30 spa.att. It was not over powered to begin with!
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Tyrantrum is rock/dragon. It's only 2x weak to ice.
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Oh roloc you are right my bad.
He is still easy to deal with ,and humans has never really given me trouble.
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Kangaskhanite has been officially banned by the OU Tiering Council. A quick run-down of the reasoning, with more information in the linked thread, is as follows:
1. Mega Kangaskhan, with an effective 213 base attack thanks to Parental Bond, is too powerful for even the bulkiest of OU physical walls. Damage calculations are listed in the thread.
2. Mega Kangaskhan is nearly impossible to revenge kill outside of fast and powerful Fighting-types. Other Pokemon who outspeed are either OHKOed by a +2 Sucker Punch or too weak to break through its 105/100/100 defenses.
3. Mega Kangaskhan severely limits teambuilding by forcing teams to run multiple obscure counters and checks.
You know what that means. IT's getting the nerf bat on PU.
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does that mean your banning it or nerfing it?
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Nerfing it.
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Unlocking topic so members who try the balance can make suggestions for Gen VI, or previous balances.