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Author Topic: Move System Alteration  (Read 6527 times)

Offline Jerry

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 04:14:47 pm »
Well, that was based off your post and you identified it correctly XD. The hours and such already hint at it.

But yea, I left the resetting part quite vague by mentioning different possibilities as I had mix feelings about them. I didn't think about the testing part since I tend to just go with that I have in-game after acknowledging the power, accuracy and description of each move they learn, but I guess we could make a special sort of room somewhere (somewhere in the pokecenter?) where one could test out moves against some dummy and is able to freely switch around the moves without altering the counters as long as he's in there. Because if you really want to make it as sensible as possible, one doesn't quickly forget something easily. If you dropped driving your car today to pilot a plane, you would still be able to drive your car properly and applying this to the system here would be to decrease the counters as the move being learned gets more counters. But then, that doesn't solve our problem of quickly switching moves.

I didn't mention accuracy, but I don't think that this should be messed up with. If anything, I would be using the counters to determine the power of the move. 100% filled would mean the Pokemon can always use the full potential of the move. 50% would mean that the pokemon has a 50% chance to bring out the full power. So in the end, the pokemon learned a new move, just cannot fully make use of it and bring out its full power.

After all, we also have 100% accurate moves like Aerial Ace which wouldn't work at all with the system of accuracy, but also the 1HKO moves.

Speaking of which, I think the 1HKO moves wouldn't need the counters. They already have a low accuracy...
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Offline genbor

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 06:35:38 pm »
Well, that was based off your post and you identified it correctly XD. The hours and such already hint at it.

But yea, I left the resetting part quite vague by mentioning different possibilities as I had mix feelings about them. I didn't think about the testing part since I tend to just go with that I have in-game after acknowledging the power, accuracy and description of each move they learn, but I guess we could make a special sort of room somewhere (somewhere in the pokecenter?) where one could test out moves against some dummy and is able to freely switch around the moves without altering the counters as long as he's in there. Because if you really want to make it as sensible as possible, one doesn't quickly forget something easily. If you dropped driving your car today to pilot a plane, you would still be able to drive your car properly and applying this to the system here would be to decrease the counters as the move being learned gets more counters. But then, that doesn't solve our problem of quickly switching moves.

I didn't mention accuracy, but I don't think that this should be messed up with. If anything, I would be using the counters to determine the power of the move. 100% filled would mean the Pokemon can always use the full potential of the move. 50% would mean that the pokemon has a 50% chance to bring out the full power. So in the end, the pokemon learned a new move, just cannot fully make use of it and bring out its full power.

After all, we also have 100% accurate moves like Aerial Ace which wouldn't work at all with the system of accuracy, but also the 1HKO moves.

Speaking of which, I think the 1HKO moves wouldn't need the counters. They already have a low accuracy...

 Yeah that would work better, I didn't even think of the Counters working on how well you can use the power of a move. I like this idea. Critical Hits were removed due to too much unpredictability, but there's no problem here, it would work almost like a Critical Hit, except it would enable you to hit with the full potential of the move. Also I thought 1HKO moves were removed, so if that's true, we don't even have to worry about them.
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Offline Jerry

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 06:51:52 pm »
Well, as far as competitive battling is involved, I don't think we'll have many people entering pokemon who haven't mastered their moves yet :P, so there's no unpredictability really in this optic.

Plus I think I should have mentioned something else. Having 50% of total counters wouldn't mean that the pokemon also has a 50% chance of hitting with 0 power. Maybe it'll be somewhere between 50% to 100% of full power inclusive and properly spread across (more towards 50% than 100%).
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Offline Bing

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 08:17:39 pm »
Would you like to fail a quest, just because you got unlucky and a moved flopped?  I wouldn't, the whole idea seems a bit broken to me.  Since the goal is to be as close to the original games as possible, while making it fair and balanced.  What's fair and balanced about losing just because you were unlucky, even though you really thought out the battle well?

Please don't do this, ever.

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Offline genbor

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2012, 08:35:18 pm »
 Please explain a bit more on what you mean Bing, I didn't really understand what you meant.
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Offline Tickles

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2012, 08:45:17 pm »
He means that the current battle system is already great. It involves a very delicate balance of luck and skill. If you introduce this "token system", which is basically the same as the counter systems you guys keep mentioning, it can break the game.

Increasing the power or accuracy of a move, or how much damage it has a chance to do because of these tokens, is a bad idea. Your damage is based off the pokemons stats, the moves base power, and the opponents Pokemon's defensive stat. If these counters say I only do half the damage I'm supposed to because I didn't use it long enough, then an opponent can easily set up and sweep no problem. And if they did set up, there is still a chance they won't do as much damage with an attacking move because they didn't use it long enough either. See how this will affect battles? Competative players will leave PU because of this, and maybe more because ember destroyed my team and my psychic never put a dent in them because I didn't use it long enough.
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Offline Bing

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2012, 08:52:45 pm »
Please explain a bit more on what you mean Bing, I didn't really understand what you meant.

I meant that a "counter system" is a bad idea.  I get the idea behind it, and the realism.  But it strays too far from the original games.  Also it poses problems for early stage PVP.  How would you like to get by some newb who just spams scratch, because your moves are new and haven't been used as much?

Also it creates a new dynamic of luck.  During a quest, I don't want to lose a battle and have to start over, just because my move didn't hit with it's full potential.  I want to fail because I made mistakes.  There already is enough luck in pokemon battles, please don't make it any stronger. 

I'd rather win based on skill vs hoping my moves have been used enough.

Offline genbor

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 08:57:36 pm »
 Ah yeah, that's under, but we are just throwing around ideas. Mr_Dark already said that the battle system pretty much stays the same, so no need to worry. :D
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Offline Jerry

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 09:29:17 pm »
Erm... hey guys? If you train your pokemon, there's no way you will be faced with a pokemon with not enough counters.

The system I put forward is not affecting accuracy at all.

A lot of tweaks can still be included, for example, trainer level can be involved to make counters reach maximum faster, something else might be that different moves have different maximum counters they can reach, different level of pokemon get different maximum, the happiness of the pokemon could be included as well, and so on.

In the end, Ember will never surpass Psychic because Ember has a power of 40 and Psychic 95. If those two pokemon really battle, your pokemon would obviously be of higher level and have more HP. If just for an instant your Psychic gets only 50% in a row, you will still win because you have more HP, and in the meantime, the number of counters on Psychic is also increasing, meaning that the minimum you can deal is increasing each time. Plus I don't really find skill on relying on only one move if you have 4 moves.

EDIT:
Early PvP, you too will have a reliable Scratch or Tackle to use in battle, plus some of the more powerful moves you just got, which depends on whether you want to take the risk to try deal more damage, or if you already got some training in that move, it will already be as reliable as a scratch, or a notch better until it surpasses it.

Early quests shouldn't be a problem either since not all quests involve battles, and where there are, you can still come for them later after some training. That's why one trains.

Sure, there is a small luck element the moment you just learned a move, but this disappears completely after some time. Well, save for the random generator which has always been adding or removing a couple of points from the damage dealt from attacks.

EDIT2:
And yes, those are mere ideas and need not be taken as being implementations to PU. The very exercise of problem solving is something I like doing :P
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Offline Roloc

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2012, 09:47:18 pm »
I must say I have to agree with Bing. The "counter system" seems to only add tediousness to training. Making a battle that I would other wise OHKO take 3-5 rounds because I kept missing with an attack that should be perfect accuracy.


EDIT:
EDIT2:
And yes, those are mere ideas and need not be taken as being implementations to PU. The very exercise of problem solving is something I like doing :P
Just wanted to add that I understand this full well. I just wanted to add to the idea pool. :D
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 09:49:39 pm by Roloc »
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Offline Jerry

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2012, 09:48:27 pm »
Wait, we never said we're tweaking the accuracy of a move.
No one can go back and change a bad beginning; but anyone can start now and create a successful ending.
If a problem can be solved, no need to worry about it. If it cannot be solved what is the use of worrying?

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Offline Jerry

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2012, 09:53:44 pm »
Well... I'm not sure he meant that, but... okay.

All this was just brought about following the idea of having access to those moves that were once in a pokemon's movepool and how switching could be discouraged if that were to be implemented, just saying as a reminder XD
No one can go back and change a bad beginning; but anyone can start now and create a successful ending.
If a problem can be solved, no need to worry about it. If it cannot be solved what is the use of worrying?

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Also, forum notification emails are not getting in my inbox... again...

Offline Roloc

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Re: Move System Alteration
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2012, 09:58:22 pm »
Its all good. I may have just misread something.

and yeah some of us know these are just ideas and not anything guaranteed to be in the game. But there are those people who just assume it will be. XD
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