[Official Feature] EV&Abilities-Replacement

[Urmel]

Changed. More soon.

UPDATE:
Talent trees are as of now trashed, until further notice.
Please advice yourself on the Optimization board.

[ghostman50]

I really like this idea. It really forces the trainer to really think and it solves a few problems with balance as well. But I just have a few questions.
 
¤ Will the trainer be able to gain points and boost stats, as explained above, after using a rare candy (or anyother item that boosts levels) or will points be awarded for levels gained by combat only?
 
¤ Will wild poke's already be customized or will they be stranded on their base stats, until trained by an actual trainer?
 
¤ After a player has left their poke's in the daycare for a certain amount of time, will any of their customizable stats increase?
 
¤ Just as in the handhelds, a pokemon can unlearn a move to learn a new one, will there be an option to swiping the assigned stat boosts and reallocating them?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Mr_Dark]

¤ Will the trainer be able to gain points and boost stats, as explained above, after using a rare candy (or anyother item that boosts levels) or will points be awarded for levels gained by combat only?

No points will only be awarded when you train the Pokemon yourself.
 

¤ Will wild poke's already be customized or will they be stranded on their base stats, until trained by an actual trainer?

Wild Pokémon will not have any extra stats. However you might get a couple of points as a gift when the Pokémon's level is high.
 

¤ After a player has left their poke's in the daycare for a certain amount of time, will any of their customizable stats increase?

Nope, see first answer
 

¤ Just as in the handhelds, a pokemon can unlearn a move to learn a new one, will there be an option to swiping the assigned stat boosts and reallocating them?

No the assigned stats and skills can not be removed, so if you make a mistake you'll have to catch a new Pokémon and try again.

[Level5Pidgey]

1. New stats
Every player will have the following extra stats:

These stats will rise when your Pokemon use attacks of a certain type. For example, when you use lots of water type attacks, your Water-type stat will increase. These stats also increase your changes of catching Pokemon of certain types. A high Water-type stat would mean it's easier for you to catch water type Pokemon. This means it will be possible for the player to specialize in a certain Pokemon type.

There will be a limit to how high these stats can get in total. The exact number is not determined yet, but if for example we decide on 100 it means that you can only gain a stat 100 times. For example 50 Water-type and 50 Fire-type.

I'd rather a general trainer stat to easily catch all Pokemon, raise them, etc. rather than one that rewards specialising.

2. Customizable Pokemon stats
Pokemon will have the same stats as in Nintendo's games:

When your Pokemon gains a level, the stats will rise as they do in Nintendo's games. However, you will also get 2 stat-points for every level. It's up to you to distribute these over your stats. You can for example add 1 stat-point to Attack and 1 stat-point to Defense or 2 stat-points to Speed.

There's also another option; you can convert the 2 points into a 1% bonus. So instead of adding 3 points to one stat, you can add a 1% bonus to one stat. When you save up these bonus-percentages, it's effect will increase as you grow in level (because your stats also grow then).

So basically, you can give your stat instant boosts by dividing the stat-points over them directly or invest in the future.

There will be a limit to how much points you can add per stat; 60.

Generally, you're allowing the addition of a higher number of stats, though, that generally doesn't change balance too much. Still, it could be an issue. +127 stats is pretty solid, I think it should stay that way.
In theory, if you gave every Pokemon another 73 stat points, every single Pokemon would be a lot bulkier. This could be bad, it could be good. I'll have to analyse it with Gammal.

Though, the percentage vs. stat points thing isn't a very good idea. People will choose what gives them the highest bonus in the end. You might as well actually just implement one. For balance reasons I'd advise stat points.

3. Customizable Pokemon abilities
Note: Don't read this before reading point 2.
The 2 stat-points your Pokemon learn every level don't necessarily have to be spent on stat bonuses. You can also choose to buy and upgrade abilities. Abilities will not be very cheap though, but you can create great strategy's with them.

In the following list all abilities will be shown with description, upgrades and price. I'll explain the first one, to show how things work. Then the full list will follow.

The rest of this post was created under the assumption that this would be implemented on top of the gameboy game mechanics, which may be irrelevant.

Well, I'll stop you here.
I have a problem with this.
What you're suggesting is a system that has... what... thousands of permuations. 
Stack on the thousands of permuations already in Pokemon and you have untestable coditions.
There had better be some amazing maths or balance theory behind this.

Also, to make situations worse, these abilities would completely and utterly change everything that Pokemon currently is. You can't balance such a system on the current metagame. Again, there had better be amazing maths or balance theory.

- Lower damage from <type> attacks

• 10% :   5pts
• 20% :   10pts
• 30% :   15pts

Extra: Can only be chosen for ((number of weaknesses) - 1) types

This ability is divided into 3 stages. 10% lower damage, 20% lower damage and 30% lower damage. You can not buy 20% lower damage without buying 10% lower damage first. Obviously you can not buy 30% lower damage without buying 20% and 10% lower damage first. The "5pts" is the price. So far 10% lower damage you have to spend 5 stat-points. This is equivalent to 3 levels (because you get 2 stat-points per level = 6 for 3 levels). "<type>" means you can choose for which type you want this ability. As the "Extra" states, you can't buy this ability for as many types as you like. It depends on how many weaknesses the Pokemon has. It's "the number of weaknesses minus one". For example: if your Pokemon has 3 weaknesses, you can buy 2 of these resistance abilities for it.

Well... there are a few issues - first, what maths are you using to equate 10/20/30% resistance to the points required (and, through extension, the stats)?
Second, 10% resistance is huge. Especially for 5/200 points. An effective strategy would be to just take the first level in all the types you can, rather than building up a resistance.
Will Pokemon be able to alter their weaknesses/resistances? Or just alter their resistance to types that do 1x damage to them?
Also, how will players be able to see enemy Pokemon's resistances? Unless a player can see a Pokemon's added resistances they won't be able to counter it properly.
How much analysis on the Competitive Metagame has been done? Are you sure that Pokemon like  Skarmory who will have access to this ability won't be able to heavily counter a counter of its own through decreasing its weakness to Electric or Fire moves?

Now for the other abilities:

- Smaller chance to get <status>

• 25% :   5pts
• 50% :   10pts
• Immune :   15pts

Extra: Can only be chosen for 1 status

This would not work at all. It is very necessary to paralyze some sweepers, or poison/burn some walls to pressure them and eventually take them down (Infernape for example).
Certain Pokes also rely on their ability to status opponents to wear them down. Weezing for example wouldn't be half as effective as he is without Will-O-Wisp.
Also... why nerf Poison Pokémon indirectly?

- Increase chance to get a critical hit

• Double :   20pts

Hmmm. I'm not really sure of what would happen here. It's risky, so I doubt many Pokemon would take it.

- Increase accuracy

• 2% :   5pts
• 4% :   10pts
• 7% :   15pts
• 10% :   20pts

Again, not sure. Most Pokes use 100% accuracy moves.

- Lower poison/burn damage

• 25% :   10pts
• 50% :   15pts

Extra: Can only be chosen for 1 status

Again, nerfing statuses is bad.

- Multiple hit moves always hit maximum amount of times

• :   15pts

If it worked with Bone Rush, Marowak would love you... with... effectively 187 or whatever power, not including his double attack from Thick Club. Especially if he got the increased accuracy on it.
Same with Rock Blast.

Other than that ability, I can't think of many others... 112 stabbed Double Slap...

Basically I wouldn't do it. The reason Cloyster got it was because he could barely use it... 

- Increase Same Type Attack Bonus (STAB)

• 5% :   6pts

Hmmm, I'd have to do some matchups on this one - though it probably wouldn't hurt on some sweepers.
5% damage is great.
Could it stack (be bought several times)? If so then you would have a problem.

- Reduce chance to get struck by a critical hit

• Half :   15pts

Again, risky... well... counter-risky.

- Additional 5-power <type> attack when using a contact attack

• 5 power :   20pts

Extra: Can only be chosen for 1 type

This could be usable/abusable... I'd need to do some matchups.
Waitttt... why am I justifying YOUR system, haha XD
Just a pointer, you should have done a few matchups yourself. Good ones would be wallbreakers who often 2 Hit KO walls, but with different EVs and this powerup, may OHKO them. 

- Increase <stat> when statused

• 1 level :   10pts
• 2 levels :   10pts

Extra: Can only be chosen for 1 stat

No.
Guts can't go on every Pokemon. Imba everywhere.
Again, statuses should not be nerfed.

- Your stat boosts are doubled, but so are your stat reductions

• :   25pts

Well, pretty obvious no.
In comp play, barely any stat reductions are used as the Poke can just switch out.
Also, Swords Dance/Nasty Plot > Rape. 

- Decrease chance of flinching by 10%

• :   10pts or 5 euro to Alais

Maybe, not a huge amount of flinching in OU. Dunsparce would be sadface though.

- Decrease recoil damage

• 5% :   4pts
• 10% :   8pts

Brave Bird would become really imbalanced.

- OHKO move protection

• Immune :   5pts

If we're talking Fissure, etc. I have no qualms with this.
On the off chance it's any hit that would OHKO you, I have pretty big qualms with this. 

- When statused, the enemy also get statused

• 5% :   4pts
• 10% :   8pts
• 15% :   12pts

Again with the statuses. No.
Also, why are you trying to make certain abilities redundant/common?
Synthesise is fine on the Pokemon it is on.

- Increase speed after using (and losing) a held item

• 1 level :   10pts

No. Sweeper's delight.

--------------------------------------

Gammal will probably have similar qualms, but with a lot more knowledge behind them.
So far, I'm not hugely enthused, sorry

Really, I was hoping there'd be some good maths behind the costs or effectiveness of various abilities - but I don't see any evidence of number crunching.  I don't understand how each ability was quanitified and evaluated against the stats.
I recommend you do some, though, myself an Gammal will likely do some of our own to work out just what kind of scenarios would change under this system. We'll get back to you

EDIT: After a brief explanation in chat, I more fully understand the ideas behind this system. Sooo.. well, I guess we all just have to chat about it XD

[schindle]

i understand what gammals worried about. BUT. i like it.

You have to be careful balancing this kind^^ basicly said: lot of your changes are way too high. it wouldnt make sense to let a pokemon make so much more damage / avoid so much.

first of all, one basic question:
when TRADING a pokemon, or, otherwise, are you able to RETRAIN your pokemon? To avoid abusing this retrain function you should make it a)for traded pokemon standard and b) for your pokemon it should cost extremely much.

second appel is to gammal:
as is said in your 'balance' thread, your trying to make an MMO out of shoddy battle! IT ISNT THAT WAY. you should be open to changes in the system. we dont want a standrd pokemon game where youre making your shoddy battle team and walk a bit around in a world. no need for something like that. For example: you say that EVERY pokemon is using 100% acc moves. yea. for the moment! because the others are not viable. so. you want to balance out pokemon but you want them still to use the same attacks? where you are right. BALANCE is important, if your increasing acc you have to be able to increase avoidance as well!:
get an example here:

flame thrown: 100*95 = 9500 damage.
fire blast (unskilled): 85*120 = 10200 damage
fire blast (skilled): 95*120 = 11400 damage.

thats an increase of 10% damage! for 20 points out. increasing your damage by 10% for 20/200(!!!!!) points? thats WAY too much! when you even imagin your using flame thrown instead of using fireblast without accurancy improvements, its even 20% increase of your damage done with 20/200 points. it wont work THAT way. make it 40 poitns worth (still, EVERY pokemon trainer would get this!) or change it to 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%. why? you can double your chance to crit with taking 20 points in. so. lets do some math here. base crit chance: base crit chance: 6.25%. for regular moves, you would increase your chance to crit hit by: 6.25%... wheres the point?  20 points spent for incredibly 6% more damage. in addition: the damage increased of all INcreased-cri-damage-moves, they got already 12%, would be increased by 12%. mh.... still too low/high. dont say: double your chance to crit hit, but make it: incrases the chance to crit hit by: 2%/4%/6%/8%/10%. that would increase all damage done by 10%. and make it 40 points at last-evelution.

one ability i guess is needed there: decreases the damage you take of crit hits. every tank would need this kind of when looking at offensive abilities. would mean hes not taking 100% more damage of a crit hit, but, like 5%/10%/15%/20%/25% less damage. essential!

 regarding the system:
its very very hard to balance such abilities. that must be clear to you. i guess, that in pre-beta/beta and so on, you should be able to make a lvl100 pokemon WITH all these abilites and then look if its really balanced. You have have a counter for all your abilities. status changed are getting nerfed. so you have to have abilities to buff it. i would love abilities like 'increases damage of your non -STAB [add a type here] moves by 5%/10%/15% as well as STAB damage increases.  As well as every of your damage increases / lowering should go to BASEDAMAGE, not to end-damage. i made some maths here, and i guess that would be more powerfull.


summary: i love it. but be careful!

[Level5Pidgey]

In chat, I think I came to the conclusion that if this was implemented - it would definitely be taking Pokemon in a different direction from the Gameboy games, and as such should be thought about in a different way.

I think that if I was to implement this system, I may do away with the typical (and flexible) stat manipulation system, and change the levelling focus to the tree. (So while you do gain stats every level, you're more concerned about spending a skill point in your ability tree).
Stat manipulation abilities could be on this tree, of course.

My justification is that trying to heavily manipulate your stats, while having a creative movepool, and managing a vast array of possible abilities is overwhelming to players, very very difficult to balance, and it creates... two kinds of customisation for your Pokemon.
There's the underlying mathematical side (let's manipulate my stats to the best spread), when the movepool and ability tree would create a more creative customisation style that focuses on actions and features over the underlying stats.

As a reference for MMOs choosing to make stat managements a less demanding task, I'd cite World of Warcraft and Guild Wars.
Both games are very focused on choosing the skills that you will use, (WoW through specialisation, Guild Wars through limiting your usable spells at one time to 8 ), and choosing your focus in a skill tree.
Both have stats that are increased as you level, but are also edited by armour. That said, selecting armour is simple, there's no cap (unlike EVs) and if you see a better piece of armour you put it on.
Stats don't play a big role, as for most challenges, you're required to just have a certain standard of gear.
The more important thing is the way your skill build is built and customised.

You may be saying that we don't have armour, and thus that level of complexity is lost, but I feel it can be sufficiently made up by stat manipulation in skill trees... and the fact that in Pokemon you build 6 units over one.

So if we were to fix up Pokemon stats so EVs weren't necessary, and make a skill tree for each Pokemon, it would be balanced, fun, solves the levelling pace problems, and well... there you go!

Just my 2 cents.

[schindle]

Stats don't play a big role, as for most challenges, you're required to just have a certain standard of gear.
The more important thing is the way your skill build is built and customised.

as for WoW, i played guild wars just for fun, this isnt right at all.
stats are a major concern of every player in endgame. imagine a basic skilled tree and just messed up stats like not beeing on hitcap, expertice lvl and/or have a min of required crit chance. as well as not being crit immune / crush immune as tank with having enough avoidance.
the same as, not every stat gives you the kind of stat you need to maximize your dps! as well as keeping the surveilibity you need on differen encounters.
as for pvp, since BC, stats are playing a extremely high role for endgame pvp. talents? nah. everybody gots the same builts. but not having enough resilance will kill you faster then having not the right talents.
but, same, in WoW its more about PLAYING style than stats/talents!

talent trees & stats play a extremely important role in WoW.
buut i agree to you. its a very good thing to distance the game from the GB games! go for it:-)
as i always said, if you need help, i loved to help like abilities making and so on:-)

[Level5Pidgey]

as for WoW, i played guild wars just for fun, this isnt right at all.
stats are a major concern of every player in endgame. imagine a basic skilled tree and just messed up stats like not beeing on hitcap, expertice lvl and/or have a min of required crit chance. as well as not being crit immune / crush immune as tank with having enough avoidance.
the same as, not every stat gives you the kind of stat you need to maximize your dps! as well as keeping the surveilibity you need on differen encounters.
as for pvp, since BC, stats are playing a extremely high role for endgame pvp. talents? nah. everybody gots the same builts. but not having enough resilance will kill you faster then having not the right talents.
but, same, in WoW its more about PLAYING style than stats/talents!

talent trees & stats play a extremely important role in WoW.
buut i agree to you. its a very good thing to distance the game from the GB games! go for it:-)
as i always said, if you need help, i loved to help like abilities making and so on:-)

Oops.
I think what I was more trying to convey was that you weren't directly influencing your stats as much, more influencing the gear (and sometimes talents) that would give you the necessary stats to complete the challenge.
Would I be correct in saying this?

[schindle]

you are influencing your stats. the system is simply doing it by gear :-) the only reason for picking up 'A' instead of 'B' is because it gives you better stats, regarding to what you are trying to get. Gear isnt everything. i used to see people wearing 'full epic rockzorzzz' thinking they are the poop... but not ever looking on what they are wearing. and i saw blue geared people topping damage meters just because they understood what hitcap/expertize and so on are. but yea. youre not influencing them directly (yea youre able to do this through talents/buffs/debuffs and so on or special on-hit items)! but wow is way more comlex then what im posting here:-D i used to math my gear days and days when getting a new item :-D:-D youre spending more time on math then ingame:-D

if we change it to, influencing your stats by doing this through another system, stat points givaway for winning a fight/tournamnet whatever, you get the same effect. and for an MMO, THIS is essential.

[Gammal]

second appel is to gammal:

Hey your pissing me off, I haven't even  said a word in this thread...

[Urmel]

CLICK HERE to follow/join the official discussion. Hopefully we can combine everyone's opinions (from PU staff, balance project and community) and make this system awesome. It will start in a few hours from now. Ps. We want full attention to people when they are speaking and keep the discussion clean, so you can't talk in there unless we enable it for you.

[schindle]

oops... could swear you've posted it :-) 1000000 excuses for this:-) should be: appel to pidgey:-)
no offense there !

[Jerry]

I have a question, not discuss the system though.

The points you're talking about, I'm guessing they'll be 'saved' on the pokemon's 'profile' so that another pokemon cannot benefit from the points one pokemon got, right?

[Mr_Dark]

I have a question, not discuss the system though.

The points you're talking about, I'm guessing they'll be 'saved' on the pokemon's 'profile' so that another pokemon cannot benefit from the points one pokemon got, right?

Yep, you can only spend points on the Pokémon who got them.